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Who is "hosed" in the CDF document?Monday, July 16. 2007Comments
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Father Bless,
What can the Catholics do with all the influx of converts from protestantism to Orthodoxy who seem to have taken the anti-Catholic polemics with them from protestantism? Of course not all have done this but many have. I don't find this as much with cradle Orthodox. I don't mean to be insulting or make light of stupidity from the West. As you said before only Our Lady can fix this mess!
I have seen the same. In fact Ancient Faith Radio even brought this up. A parishioner was speaking in an anti-Catholic vein (as he had done in the past) when his priest stopped him and said, "Is the extent of your belief hate for the Catholics? How small is your faith and understanding if this is so." MANY people I know that are Orthodox are converts (often in their 20s or 30s). A number of those that came from protestant backgrounds continue to wave the anti-Catholic flag.
That is certainly a problem in the US. I was listening to a series of programs on Ancient Faith Radio recently on "Imputed Righteousness." The speaker consistently spoke of "Western Christians" as all holding the same kind of soteriology, as though there had never been a little debate known as the Reformation!!! (Pity, because Ancient Faith Radio is generally very good.)
But, of course, this is primarily an American problem. And in the big picture American Catholic-Orthodox relations aren't all that significant compared with those in Russia, Ukraine, Romania, the Middle East etc. Fr Maximos
If all "Western Christians" all held the same on salvation I think my Calvinist Dad and I have a serious problem with our reading levels! I think that Sola Fide is one of the new ideas that Catholics and Orthodox can join together and reject! My Best Friend who became Orthodox was,listening to her mother say how wrong the Catholics were to reject Sola Fide and she told her that she sided with the Catholics!
Your series on website that talks about the Sacraments is very helpful to an ex-Calvinist turned Catholic turned Byzantine Catholic. I suspected that alot of the heresies put out by the protestants were in part due to the earlier change in Western methods of theology. I don't blame it all on this but it sure did have a part in it. Thanks to Fr Moses for telling me to read it! The bottom line with the schism in the Church is that it hurts Almighty God that His Churchn is spilt. That should bother every Catholic and Orthodox out there.
It is ironic that the document emphasizes a basic need to have unity and yet undermines that very same effort. At the same time, it is supporting unity with another group, who really seemed to be a more intended audience: the SSPX.
There are many situations I find on a local level where we have missed opportunities. I think taking such simple initiatives will filter up the chain. For instance, an Orthodox friend was recently telling me of her efforts to form a choir to perform traditional Orthodox music. I suggested she contact her local Eastern Catholic Church choirs. She hadn't thought of the idea and said she didn't realize they shared a musical heritage. She will now do so and from it, I hope, she will gain some respect and understanding for the Eastern Catholic Churches. There are many opportunities for unity if we take advantage of them. As your blog witnesses, it is important for us to use our talents and abilities in order to work for this unity in our own lives. It is a shame that it isn't being emulated from those with influence who should be striving all the more. If my simple suggestion and your piece of the Internet can work for such unity, how much more could Cardinal Levada and Pope Benedict do so with the platforms they have? I would like to think that this was an unintended effect of the document, and not that they realized the ecumenical effects and ignored them. It seems like the document was intended for an internal audience to keep people from leaving the Catholic Church out of relativism. As such, I would fall back on those documents which specifically address ecumenism, such as Orientale Lumen, in order to read this new document through that light unless directed not to. The fallout from this document is a great opportunity to reinforce the need for unity and, as you put it, spiritual ecumenism. Has there been any movement to do so? To answer my own question: you have already begun such work.
It is my firm belief that union between Churches will come as a "grassroots" movement. As Father Maximos mentioned above, the ecumenical climate in other countries is very different.
In the Middle East, people frequent each others' Churches, mostly out of convenience or because of an invitation to a memorial service or Crowning. When registering a newly immigrant family in my parish, I have a difficult time establishing exactly what Tradition they belong to, because they have spent so many years attending different Churches in the old country. In America, the efforts of the Orientale Lumen conferences and the offshoot Society of St. John Chrysostom are small but positive steps. We will find deeper union from collaborative enterprises such as the joint festival and other activities shared between the Greek Orthodox Cathedral and Roman Catholic parish in Los Angeles. In my parish, we serve the poor on Thursday evenings. We have folks come from the Orthodox and Latin Churches and from a couple Protestant Churches to contribute. We manage to fulfill the Gospel of love and proclaim the Kingdom through our service to the poor, even (perhaps especially) in our brokenness and division.
If you look at the Middle East you don't see as many differences as you see the common shared belief in Jesus Christ. The Islamic goverments really don't care if your church has a picture of the Pope or not.
The Orthodox are simply following the line laid out by Khomiakov that RC and Protestantism are two sides of the same coin, quite similar, though still different. He put it in mathematical terms where Wetsern Christianity is x, and the RC and Protestant are simply -x or +x: always relative to the same starting point, though coming to very different conclusions, at times.
I have to admit that part of the allure of Orthodoxy for me as a Protestant was that it was like the RCC, but not. I wasn't anti-RC (that would leave out most of my family and my wife), but I was anti-RC theology. As I became more open to certain aspects of traditional Christianity such as veneration of the saints and relics, Holy Orders, monasticism and asceticism I had a greater appreciation for aspects of RC theology that I had previously been against. But, there were aspects of that theology and its basis in the history and practice of the Church that i simply didn't see. I look at the 'proof' for the papacy and see either proof for a first among equals or of a local tradition run amuck through isolation and being the big Apostolic fish (see) in a small pond (the West). I also like beig able to bypass the circularm infinite parsing of what Augustine 'really taught', and the 'real' and 'proper' distinction between the different kinds of grace, works, faith, etc. RC and Protestants all fought over the same ground over and over again and it all just seemed to be so much sophistry fighting for 'our side's' version of the 'best' way to explain the unexplainable based on what arguments we thought were best founded because... It was refreshing to be able to let God be God and let Mystery by mysterious and simply allow for faith, rather than demanding a quasi-scientific rendering in philosophical (sophistry) mumbo-jumbo of what amounted to the reason 'why we're right and they're wrong'. Orthodoxy bypassed all of that and never allowed itself to accept the scholastic bait (too much). It was wonderful to be able to not be anti-Reformed and anti-Baptist and anti-liberal Lutheran and anti-RC and anti-Anabaptist, etc. and simply be Orthodox because there is very little 'choice' or debate about what kind of Orthodox one wants to be, what spirituality to follow, etc. Choice basically revolved around what language you want to worship in, and that's about it for the vast majority. Of course, being Orthodox in a non-Orthodox country one is inevitably drawn into trying to explain what it is and why you converted, which of necessity requires one to be able to refer to something 'known'. So, RCism and Protestantism becomes, depending on where one is, the starting point to compare and contrast. For the newbie or non-expert Orthodox, it can be difficult to navigate an appropriate measure in that comparison and contrast in polite company - especially given the diversity one finds in devotees of a faith and their knowledge of Christian history (broadly, as well as of the various other Christian bodies, including their own).
Christopher: I appreciate your irenicism...but you do realize, don't you, that you are still caricaturing RCism? (As well as being unfair to the early evidence for the papacy, which repeatedly bears witness to an authority beyond mere "first among equals.")
I am a Cradle Catholic, and I can assure you that 99.99% of Catholics do not go around parsing passages from Augustine or re-fighting the battles of the Reformation. Calvinists, yes. Baptists, maybe. Catholics, no. Like Orthodoxy, Catholiism is one of those things best understood from the inside. We, too, have mystery. And yes, we also have dogma. But we find the latter liberating, not constraining. It frees us to focus on prayer, liturgy, relationship with Christ, corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and our favorite private devotions.  Besides, the Immaculate Conception rocks! Soeaking of which--today is the feast of St. Maximilian Kolbe. Martyr of Charity, who was greatly devoted to the Immaculata. Saint Maximilian, pray for us! Diane |
